sizzledeck@yahoo.com
Guest
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 8:43:08 GMT -5
Post by sizzledeck@yahoo.com on Jun 5, 2002 8:43:08 GMT -5
Hi what!!!!!!!!!!! I feel you are enranged about RB'S divorce. That anger would be justified, had it been leslie writing those posts, when she herself agreed who are we to question.Its their choice!!!!!!!!!! COOL DOWN!!!!!!!!
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 9:13:08 GMT -5
Post by what@aol.com on Jun 5, 2002 9:13:08 GMT -5
Hi sharp!!!!! I guess you haven't read a thing I wrote, because I could care less if the guy got divorced. But I could wipe the garbage up off the streets with sort of man who would abandon six kids for 20 years, while he made millions of dollars based on a bunch of phony principles.
|
|
Kitt
New Member
Posts: 7
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 11:02:26 GMT -5
Post by Kitt on Jun 5, 2002 11:02:26 GMT -5
This is the problem when you start talking, especially about spiritual stuff. Others expect the walk to match perfectly and according to *their* standards.
Are there things that are universally right or wrong? You cite taking another's life. Okay. I would agree. BUT what if someone were seriously threatening to kill me, or even worse, kill one of "my" kids and the only way I could stop them is to kill the person who threatened me. Would doing so then make anything else I stood for automatically void?
And the "grey areas" are where most of life occurs. It's where the absolute moral values collide. That's why it is so uncomfortable and why there is so much acrimony around many of the grey areas.
To further what Rokclmr said, walking your talk is hard even when it was your idea. What is impossible, is to walk your walk according to someone else's interpretation of your talk.
And thanks, Rocklmr, for all the nice stuff you said. You made me feel very welcome!
Kitt
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 11:23:28 GMT -5
Post by what@aol.com on Jun 5, 2002 11:23:28 GMT -5
Kitt - Obviously you are a very forgiving person, which is a fine quality. But what I'm saying is, you better walk the walk when you publish those types of ideas and say that is how you live! He said it, not me. It's like some Senator talking about how this country is going to hell in a hand basket because we lack family values. Then you find out the guy has been sleeping around on his wife for years.
What it does is it ruins that person's credibility. If you don't practice what you preach, you are a hypocrite.
And twisting around things to try and make them arguable is just some way of playing Devil's advocate. Of course you have a right to defend your own life. But you don't have a right to murder someone. How's that?
I don't care what his reasons were, to leave a two year old child and never see him again until HE contacts YOU 20 years later tells me this guy is morally bankrupt. That's my opinion of him. It's not a grey area, it's black and white to me. If you just love him to death and want to make excuses for him, that's fine. He chose to say he lives a certain way, nobody forced him to put that on paper. Funny how he never, ever mentions in all his books that he has six children he left on a whim. But he talks of Love and how Love is the answer, blah, blah, blah. This guy doesn't know one damn thing about Love.
|
|
rokclmr
Full Member
"When you're learning to face the path at your pace, every choice is worth your while."
Posts: 30
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 11:37:10 GMT -5
Post by rokclmr on Jun 5, 2002 11:37:10 GMT -5
"[snip]...walking your talk is hard even when it was your idea. What is impossible, is to walk your walk according to someone else's interpretation of your talk."
Amen, Kitt.
"[snip]... That's my opinion of him."
Cool... freedom of opinion is a great quality in the USA. I think an old euphemism I've heard fits here:
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."
What has made valid points based on Society's thought patterns, and I understand all of them. However, I don't think I'm going to change my viewpoint on RB's work at all... I won't condemn a man for making his choices. They're his... just as my choices are mine.
IMHO, Rokclmr
"Let it be, let it be..." -- The Beatles
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 12:00:27 GMT -5
Post by what@aol.com on Jun 5, 2002 12:00:27 GMT -5
Wow rokclmr, it must be nice to know we don't have to be accountable for anything! It's hard to walk that walk and to live up to other peoples standards, especially your own! But like I said, if it was anyone but Richard Bach, some guy on Jerry Springer, you wouldn't be NEAR so forgiving. Or maybe you would, you seem to think life is so hard, it's basically impossible to be a decent person.
"Bach left his family when the youngest of his six children was nine months old and Jonathan only two, because he didn't believe in marriage and couldn't be a father anymore. And because Richard Bach apparently also didn't believe in birthdays, Christmas, or any of the holidays marked by cards and calls, the children never heard from him."
That's over 20 years of living immorally. Yet, if this guy had been a serial killer, you guys would say, "Hey, it's tough not killing other people. Just because you say you won't kill, doesn't mean in you can't kill a few people in your personal life! Give the guy a break, he was only gone for 20 years for God's sake! He needed a little space and time to figure out that space and time really don't matter."
Whew, I must say, you people are a lot nicer than this guy probably is.
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 12:21:33 GMT -5
Post by markrr1@net66.com on Jun 5, 2002 12:21:33 GMT -5
Well what, can you do when fiction does not meet one's "expectations" of what perceived to be real? My personal opinion on this matter is that I do not recall any book written by RB to be anything but wonderful fiction with a mix, as any writer does, of personal experience and opinion.
The complaint expressed by "what" is invalid to all who write for the intent of writing to make a living , using a talent they have to entertain, and if a reader is lucky...to allow a new thought or idea to be expressed and shared.
Now if RB was writing on subject matter that included "what" is judging RB about...maybe a valid point could exist. Yet even that judgement, like most self-appointed ones are, would be based on the artist, not the product produced by the artist.
I love many products of art, but do I necessarily need to agree with who and what the artist may be personally? For me, no. I look at the appeal of the product based on how it is of value to me, nothing more, nothing less.
Take it to another level...I personally "feel" uncomfortable with individuals who make broad moral based statements that are black & white, yet, this does not require that they be subjected to any anger or rebuttal from me, they are of their opinion, a right that is available in this society. Nor does it require I ban their right to having the ability to produce a quality product to make a living if that is a capability they have.
The arguement "what" is using is flawed. No more, no less, since RB's books Are fiction, albeit leaning towards non-fiction at times.
None the less is the fact the books are beautifully written, the flow of words well said, and if anything, readable!
I personally never place anything on a pedestal, especially human beings! We are all with flaws. Until I walk in another's footsteps I am not the one to judge either...there is a time and place for that and in my opinion it does not exist here on earth if it does not concern a crime that involves the legal community.
Morality is subjective, even the Bible was written by humans, and since we are flawed...better not to argue for our limitations. (smile)
Today I find it easier to concern myself with recovering from a surgery that has left this writer one-handed at the moment...whatever "what"cares to entertain his anger and morality with is strictly "what's" business....yet life is less lived by any of us when we focus on others rather than our own.
...and for me, this is my humble opinion only.
Now try and have a good day! (laughing!!!) Beats beating up on something as irrelevant as the morality of right vs wrong and who is what and what's on first and I don't know where was!(Grin)....Life...the wonderful thing we have each day we are given the opportunity to breathe air...only when that ceases do we really have to think about morality.
Have Fun!!!!! M.E. Krewson Recovering from surgery and bored, so slowly chose to bother with this....Hi all!!!
|
|
Kitt
New Member
Posts: 7
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 12:34:00 GMT -5
Post by Kitt on Jun 5, 2002 12:34:00 GMT -5
Oh my! "And twisting around things to try and make them arguable is just some way of playing Devil's advocate. Of course you have a right to defend your own life. But you don't have a right to murder someone. How's that? " But that is not what you said. You said it was an absolute universal truth that taking a life was bad. As far as forgiving, no it is not about forgiveness. Forgiveness is a social contract between two people and as far as I know Richard Bach does not know me from Eve, and probably does not give a rat's hind end whether or not he disappointed me. Here is the lesson I have learned over the last several years. Like anyone else who has just learned something, I think it is one of the more miraculous cool things in the universe., while it may be glaringly obvious to other people on the list, so please forgive me if this is the case. Here goes: We are human; humans make mistakes. We may make the same mistake over and over. That is okay. The important thing is to learn from the mistake. We may not learn the lesson perfectly, so have to repeat it. And other people can make mistakes, too. We can choose not to be in relation with them if those mistakes are something we cannot handle. For you, the big huge mistake of breaking faith with his kids is too much for you to handle. You do not want to be in relationship with him, even as a reader; so be it that is your choice. For me, I realize that Richard Bach made some big huge mistakes that I do not want to make (and come on, let's it admit it, aren't we feeling a bit smug, you and I, that we have learned a lesson he hasn't? ). But my choice is to recognize his humanity, and move on. I guess what is disturbing to me and what prompted me to write in the first place is your seeming need for everyone else to agree with you, and if they don't, calling them names, assigning them motivations that may or may not be there (e.g., "If you just love him to death and want to make excuses for him, that's fine."). I would be willing to bet that most of us on who think about these things would agree with the statement "Love is the Answer"; and most of us fall short of that ideal every single bloody day. By your definitition, we are all hypocrites. That's where the concept of grace enters into the picture. I find as I get older many people who lead the way for me have been flawed humans. I was extremely annoyed with Cat Stevens when he reverted to Islam and repudiated all the lovely things he sang-- and right at the time when I was discovering all the lovely things he sang. It turns out my favorite aunt, who helped me get through adolesence without doing myself any serious harm, was herself an extremely troubled soul who ended up committing suicide of a sort. Turned out she didn't believe all the things that were true about my own self worth were true for her as well. That felt like big betrayal. But that doesn't make her lessons false. Martin Luther King, Jesse Jackson, Anne Morrow Lindbergh, all three had affairs. I don't always agree with everything Maya Angelou has done either, but I appreciate all of their words, when they present their best selves to us. If that seems to you some sort of weird masochistic forgiveness or blind hero worship, then that's how it seems to you. Good journey, Kitt Edited to add: You keep bringing up Jerry Springer. I don't watch Jerry Springer. Shows that set up other people's problems for yet other people to judge and shout at all in the name of entertainment is just plain ookey! Shows a complete and total lack of moral fiber, that :-)
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 12:36:17 GMT -5
Post by what@aol.com on Jun 5, 2002 12:36:17 GMT -5
M.E. - I respect your opinion, but I don't think my arguments are flawed in the least. JLS may have been pure fiction, but "Bridge" and "One" and even "Illusions" were books he considers auto-biographies. Leslie Parrish was a real person. He also taught seminars on his "lifestyle" with her if you recall. Mr. and Mrs. "higher conscious". Wonder how much they charged for those lessons?
But you are right about one thing, none of us will change our minds about this, so it's been fun arguing with you guys, but I believe I'll move on to my next cause - Proving that Hillary Clinton is the anti-Christ.
Anyway, I like all of you more than I do Richard Bach. And I feel like all of you are much better people than he is, so I don't know why you even need to read his trash!
See yah!
|
|
|
POS
Jun 5, 2002 12:41:01 GMT -5
Post by what@aol.com on Jun 5, 2002 12:41:01 GMT -5
Kitt - Please don't get me started on Jesse Jackson! lol
Hey, I stopped the name calling after the first post. Like I said, I think all of you are great people.
I'll check in on you from time to time. ;D
|
|
|
POS
Jun 9, 2002 10:17:19 GMT -5
Post by myopinion on Jun 9, 2002 10:17:19 GMT -5
here today - gone tomorrow
Oshkosh is an interesting visit -
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
POS
Jul 2, 2002 13:04:49 GMT -5
Post by LL on Jul 2, 2002 13:04:49 GMT -5
One sure fire way to learn about something is to judge it...And judge RB's way of life you have. I'd be willing to bet (and I only bet on sure things) that at this very moment, circumstances are arranging in your life to show you what it is that you cannot stand about an individual who made free choices about his life. It is his life, and his alone. I only hope that you come back to this site and share what you learned from it. You say that you would NEVER leave your 2 yr old...Always and never...words that cause miraculous results. Have fun on your little journey that you are about to embark on.
|
|
|
POS
Jul 23, 2002 19:48:56 GMT -5
Post by what on Jul 23, 2002 19:48:56 GMT -5
Choices. Responsibility. Respect. Remember these in YOUR little journey. If you can't handle parenthood, for God's sake, don't have six kids! Nothing short of death would ever take me from my daughter. So, what is it I'm supposed to have learned? I've never learned a thing from Richard Bach.
|
|
|
POS
Jul 23, 2002 19:57:16 GMT -5
Post by what on Jul 23, 2002 19:57:16 GMT -5
Murderers, rapists, dead-beat Dads. All living THEIR lives. And people judge them all the time. It wasn't my decision to have six kids, it was HIS. He never gave an excuse that his former wife was some unbelievable witch that kept him from his kids. He said that he couldn't be a father any more and went out on a lark to fly around in his bi-plane. His kids despised him for it, while he made millions. I'm pretty damn sure it was right after the success of JOL, and that he wasn't all that surprised to find out how much money he had in the bank (as he would have you believe in Bridges). But you keep on defending him. It helps him pay for the No Trespassing signs.
|
|
|
POS
Jul 23, 2002 20:01:51 GMT -5
Post by what on Jul 23, 2002 20:01:51 GMT -5
And by the way, the two year old is now two and a half and still the love of my life. Looking forward to dancing at her wedding one day. I can handle being a father, and like I said, she'll be in my life as long as I'm on this Earth. But make sure you attend one of those RB seminars if he decides to Tour with the third wife!
|
|