It just is... (?)

[lokistail]

Hey, fellow seekers, have you tried playing with 'It Just Is' yet? Do away with that puzzlement and searching in a flash... :-) As far as I can tell, it kinda goes something ike this...

Well, I think that there almost certainly is some sort of Absolute Truth, but that it's also way beyond human comprehension, and even when we think we get glimpses of it, it's still only delusion or illusion. So we're never really going to actually 'Know' anything. And thinking that we are or believing that you do are signs of a weak minded hopefulness that somehow the infinite void might actually become filled. Dream on... Which leaves us with the best we can hope for being a belief in 'It Just Is'. Now within 'It Just Is' there's an element of enlightenment, but to glean access to that you have to sidestep the frustration of Not Knowing, or the ego-deflation of Never Knowing, or the pique of Don't Care Then, or the apathy of Does It Matter Then, or the very tricky and enrapturing No, That Can't Be Right, What If I Just Ponder/Think/Meditate/And So On... So you really have to take It Just Is at face value, as It Just Is (does this require some sort of faith – Eeek, the 'F' word...) (or is it even the abdication of the role of True Seeker of the Light?) (answers on a postcard...). :-)

Now then, I always found the existence of a Higher Intelligence to be amply demonstrated when I washed the dishes. This vital-to-life water stuff is so abundant, even on a small overcrowded island like mine, that you just turn on one of several outlets spread around your house and it just pours in. But the really good bit is, out of one tap it won't wash dishes, but out of the other, just a relatively few degrees hotter, it shifts grease and grime like an advert. That strikes me as so profound, there has to be a God/Creator/Someone Clever Behind It All. But lots of people aren't that easily convinced (or simply not that intuitively observant). So then you can look at how finely tuned our existence is. Like Oxygen. A few percent less of it in our atmosphere, and nothing would ever burn; a few percent more, everything would. And that percentage has been stable for millions of years, despite endless catastrophes that makes tsunamis look like a raindrop in a puddle. But that could still just be chance? But then there's the force of gravity, or the atomic force. These guys are fine-tuned to around only 1 per cent. Alter them even ever so slightly, and the whole Universe flies apart. Or collapses. Groovy! But if you wanted to be pedantic, this could still be seen as chance?

Okay, so let's move onto the Cosmological Constant. That's apparently a kinda cool very slight anti-gravity force that permeates space and keeps everything all sorted and lovely. That's kinda fine-tuned as well. By a factor of 10 to the power 120. Or to put it another way, it is fine-tuned to

0.000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,001 per cent.

Er, blimey! The chances of that being just chance are a bit chancey... To coin a Chaos Theory phrase – it's like finding the Fingerprint of God...

And there, tongue firmly in cheek, and without resorting to even a variation of logic, the case for It Just Is, rests, your worship... :-)

(Am I right in thinking this is meant to be fun after all...?)

[Falion]

I dont "THink" i have a glimpse of this "absolute truth", I know My own absolute truth....to be true....It just is, is a fine philosophy...but for me its to similar to "just have faith."....You feel a higher intelligence in your life?....Thats good. whatever works for you. Me...There is none higher. or greater. or "THE" creator. Its all equal...I dont sell myself short...man made systems only go so far with me. Experience is the only advantage amongst us...I think its the other way around with being inuitively observant..to reach that point you realize your in control, the puppet strings detach....but hey, whatever works for you, thats all that matters right?

[lokistail]

Whatever works for you... Yeh, that's a fair comment. And I need to be careful here, cos I only come on here to play and explore, not knock too many holes in things.

But I don't really see how an admission of something greater denies creativity, or diminishes me? I don't feel I have any puppet strings, but I accept I exist in something Other than myself. Call it the Is, the Ganzfield, the Aether, the Universe or whatever, it's the playground I project my creativity onto, and I don't see that I supply that. Yeh, I might well be the puppetmaster, but is the stage not already set up for me? So no matter how intimately or intricately I might think I know the stage, I don't believe I knocked every nail in or sewed every curtain ring on. :-)

[Grave]

Hello lokistail

Indeed... After all, its quite a possibility that this "Is" is "me"

[lokistail]

Hi Grave,
I don't doubt that possibility for a moment, and it's a very tempting philosophy. But taken to its obvious conclusion, does it not deny the existence of anything except me? Which seems a bit like attaining a degree of mental comfort at the expense of extreme isolation, or some kind of manic dictatorship. I'm sorry if I sound obtuse, and I certainly don't lay claim to any sort of insight (even It Just Is, I was only playing with the concept cos it amused me), but it strikes me that this realm is about learning rather than knowing, and I just get concerned that one of the ways of avoiding growing towards the truth is to think you already have...?

[Bluebird]

Somehow for me it's not right to think that God made hot water good for removing grease. I am not laughing at you, just giving my point of view which is, that if water didn't work and there was another way to remove grease, we would've probably have found that and seen that as miraculous.

Same thing with oxygen. I am convinced that there are planets with the same potential for life as we do, but with too much / too little oxygen. Life could still evolve on those planets, and it doesn't mean everything would have to burn. Even if it did, it would not be creativity, but just a question of probability of all possible constants.

But if you wanted to be pedantic, this could still be seen as chance?

I wouldn't say chance, but probabilities. There is physical evidence that anyone of us can walk through walls. Nothing in physics denies it. Only, with our current understanding you'd have to wait for a VERY long time until it happens that all probability constants are set just so. (of course there can be factors that alter the probability, such as mind-power...)

Okay, so let's move onto the Cosmological Constant.

I know very little of the cosmological constant, but as I understand it, it's something Einstein placed in his equations of general relativity because it wouldn't work out otherwise. So we're talking about a single mathematical number. Somehow it feels a bit trivial that if there was a God, he would create such "imperfections" Perhaps the equation is not completely correct and the phenomenon not completely understood?

lokistail, I am by no means critisizing you or trampling on your thoughts. Please do not get that impression. I am just pondering on what you said, which is very interesting, indeed.

[Grave]

Very Wise of you Lokinstail

lokistail said:

But taken to its obvious conclusion, does it not deny the existence of anything except me?

Surely it does. And it denies your existence too.

Which seems a bit like attaining a degree of mental comfort at the expense of extreme isolation, or some kind of manic dictatorship.

Yes, the two options that you have laid seem to be valid.
But also,

1) When there is no one, then there is no way one can ATTAIN a belief either.

2) A "Maniac dictatorship" will be surely valid provided there is some one to be ruled upon.

========================================

....but it strikes me that this realm is about learning rather than knowing,

To learn is to know and to know(recall) is to learn(revise) ...is it ?

========================================

..... that one of the ways of avoiding growing towards the truth is to think you already have...?

Quite true. And this illusion actually helps one to grow also.

Knowing(or reassuring ourselves) of already having something assists in breaking out of the illusion of "working for" to have "the somethings" [/i] [/color]

Grave(Mirrored)

[lokistail]

Hi Bluebird - no worries, I don't mind even if you are laughing, the hot water thing amuses me so much I do think it's funny. But also profound - I've no idea if there's a God or not, but if there is then hot water will be exactly the sort of smart helpful thing they'd give us...

Quote: Even if it did, it would not be creativity, but just a question of probability of all possible constants.

Maybe it's just me being dim and not grasping something simple (which is a strong possibility ), but where do these constants come from, and what medium/form do they exist in, whether as potential or actuality? What background are they displayed on? I know all this stuff is difficult, because we rapidly run out of terminology to express meanings which we haven't really developed the language for. So if we're not careful we end up debating words rather than concepts. Nonetheless, what I'm playing with here is the idea that there is something other than me. If there is just me, I understand that concept, create my own reality, but I might as well be in bed dreaming for all the difference it makes, surely? So I can't shake the fact that there's Something Else. I don't think that is in any way handing over power to a higher authority, and I don't particularly need to know what that Something Else is, it just seems to be the way it is. It's kinda like if I ride my motorcycle, I can go as fast or as slow, in whatever direction I like, for as long as I like (unless I've maintained it badly and it blows up - and there's an analogy there perhaps as well). So I'm totally free to express myself, but the motorcycle and the highway is still a separate vehicle I use to do that. That's probably not a very good example, but it is just what springs to mind. I guess what I'm trying to say is it seems to me there's a background energy or force, which we can call the Is for want of a better word, and that sort of provides the playground for us to do our thing in. Do we need to know Newton's Laws of Physics to enjoy a swing or roundabout - no, we just climb aboard and have Fun. So maybe less time spent pondering and wondering what it's all about, and more time going It Just Is and getting on with Life, might be a useful way to go?

Please feel free to criticise - I won't be offended and I may well learn something.

[lokistail]

Hi Grave - I don't mind having my existence denied, it still feels like me in here anyway.

But I'm not sure I follow... If there is no-one and no beliefs, then are you saying even the feeling like me is an illusion? That's okay if I'm an aspect of something else, but if there is no something else either, I don't understand, because then everything is denied - I don't get the coherence in that nihilistic approach - it's an emptiness but with no validity?

Quote: To learn is to know and to know(recall) is to learn(revise) ...is it ?

I'd say it is, but again, if you are recalling, by definition you are reclaiming knowledge from somewhere else...?

Quote: Knowing(or reassuring ourselves) of already having something assists in breaking out of the illusion of "working for" to have "the somethings"

Yeh, that's smart thinking! But if you do break out of the illusion, is it okay to then know nothing and yet still not work for the something?

[Falion]

I like your perspective of the "other" force, reality in which were in, or part of, ....Its interseting to ponder......maybe its a little of being a part of it all, and being seperate, where is that fine-line? what is that fine-line? ...... Your thoughts are very ZEn my friend.!....I like your attitude on this.......

WHat do you think happens after the flesh?..just curious.

[lokistail]

Hi, thanks for those comments. After the flesh...? Mmm, good question. Well, I like to think there is something - otherwise the question is irrelevant - and this is partly why I quite like idea of the 'other'. After the flesh (or before the flesh for that matter) I can merge with it, or take on a new existence, or adopt new flesh, or do whatever takes my fancy, because the playground will presumably still be accessible...? I see the flesh as just a narrow aspect of All That Is, it only looks wide because that is all we can perceive as a human being. And I think the limit of human experience is therefore to be able to consider that there may be an 'afterlife', but not to be able to discern what that actually is. If we could obtain direct evidence of the nature of an afterlife, I suspect that would change our humanity more profoundly than we can contemplate, possibly to the extent of giving us a 'blueprint' for life, and hence losing the learn/play/spontaneity/uncertainty that makes life such Fun? I'm quite happy to be able to consider the concepts, but to actually know nothing...

[Grave]

Hi Lokistail, having a good day ?

lokistail said:

Hi Grave - I don't mind having my existence denied, it still feels like me in here anyway.

It does, And I can't undertsand the dualty of it yet.. both seem equally right to me sometimes..

========================================

If there is no-one and no beliefs, then are you saying even the feeling like me is an illusion?

Yup... may be because only one out of all of us is real ? (I am not sure if if I believe this either)

========================================

That's okay if I'm an aspect of something else, but if there is no something else either, I don't understand, because then everything is denied - I don't get the coherence in that nihilistic approach - it's an emptiness but with no validity?

Yea.. this is so true... Could it be possible that there Is who Isn't .... ?

========================================

Quote: To learn is to know and to know(recall) is to learn(revise) ...is it ?

I'd say it is, but again, if you are recalling, by definition you are reclaiming knowledge from somewhere else...?

Indeed... and that could be my truth or illusion ?
========================================

Quote: Knowing(or reassuring ourselves) of already having something assists in breaking out of the illusion of "working for" to have "the somethings"

Yeh, that's smart thinking! But if you do break out of the illusion, is it okay to then know nothing and yet still not work for the something?

hmm .. a very interesting question Lokistail... I guess thats the opposite only in real sense.. ?

========================================
Just a thought:

How would I validate knowledge of Having Knowledge ... If I always believe I am next to the one who created... I would have to have the knowledge that It Is...(To Picture is illusion) ?

If GOD isn't me then who is he/she ?


Grave

[Grave]

Falion said:

WHat do you think happens after the flesh?..just curious.

PARTY TIME ;D (for those who can't picture Hell)

[lokistail]

Hi Falion, LOL! ROFL in fact... Cool.

Hi Grave,

A fine day, thank you. Yourself?

If GOD isn't me then who is he/she ?

Aha, this is part of the beauty of It Just Is, you don't have to ask that question, just accept it as unanswerable. Indeed, whether God exists or not, why should man be so full of himself as to think he can ask or understand who/what God is? Not when there are much more fundamental and important questions to ask like 'What shall I do today?' (you can add 'while I'm pretending to be God' to the end of that question quite nicely though, and it does spice things up a little ).

[lizanne333]

Hi guys,

It is student Lizanne here,

I need to learn.

My brain is twisting

trying to understand here.

Please help me, ok

Are you saying that I am thinking to much and just
not being?

Are you saying I am already everything I have ever
wanted to be and more....,

Why would I need to know about the whole ball of wax
when the strand that I am is infinitely complex.

Why do I feel I need to know it all? When all that I am
is more than sufficient?

The wanting of "knowing more" is like a black hole,
which will never be satisfied, it just sucks and is not
satisfied.

Am I hearing that I am to just pay attention to my strand
right here and now, appreciating the beauty of the organism that I am?

Leaving the rest up to Another/He/She/It/We/You/They,
Those different aspects of the tremendous W(hole)y
One.

So, I guess, it is time to put my wanting to sleepzzzzzzzzz
andawaken to the longing of the completion of the
Spirit I am in me, here on Planet Earth, cause I guess
then I might enjoy this life some,huh

Grave, Is this why the Budda is Laughing???
Thank-you dear friends.

Lizanne

P.S. The frown just appeared, honestly, I did not add it,
but I will let it be, maybe it is me in need of a good laugh!
Or it is me sad and in agony! Hmmmm, we'll see.
What fun!