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Post by Horace on Jul 10, 2002 15:51:10 GMT -5
Metaphors are a problem. I wasnt refering to a spouse as a leg! It was the pain that I was drawing attention to. Recall Carlos Castenada goes on about holes in the soul left by broken attachments. Serious scarring that weakens resolve, will and faith.
People fall out because they get lazy. People dont suddely become incompatible - or much more rarely than people get divorced anyway. What could be so sudden - a brain injury?
Avoidance is not the same as denying the option "at all costs."
To be honest I dont see much to separate what LL and I are sayin g in practice. I am simply saying that finding a plumber is a lot of work, learning to trust them takes time, and showing them where all the faucets and valves are, is not something you want to repeat in your life as a matter of course. Would you value a plumber more than a life partner? Divorce is - in the least - a sad form of suicidal plumber-cide - and SHOULD be avoided.
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Ami
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Post by Ami on Jul 10, 2002 16:16:51 GMT -5
I find I must disagree! While I believe that one should make every effort to make a marriage work, when it doesn't, one is not only hurting onesself, but one's partner by remaining in the marriage. Why should we force ourselves to suffer when "fixing it" doesn't work??
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Post by Horace on Jul 10, 2002 17:29:21 GMT -5
Ami - I dont see how you are disagreeing%20???
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LL
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Post by LL on Jul 10, 2002 18:11:32 GMT -5
I would say that the scarring left by continuing a marriage that has no hope of resolve would be far worse than if it were broken up. And if the breakup strengthens resolve, will and faith(I'm sure that just as many strengthen rather than weaken)... what then of these "holes in the soul"? The "pain" DOES NOT have to accompany a divorce!!!!!!!!!!!! (I feel like Ray ;D) Pain is caused by misperception of what is occuring...and I know what pain you are speaking of(not physical, like I broke my leg)...the pain inside your chest, in your gut...just inside altogether...It does not HAVE to accompany a divorce! Explain please No, they dont "suddenly" become incompatible...it happens over a period of time(a month, a year, 10 yrs, 50 yrs) and finally reaches a point where there is no return to where happiness reigns...this fact changes nothing I have said...incompatibility causes tension and pain in the lives involved and unless the people enjoy the constant disruption (which some do) they will seek a way (divorce) to get away from this uncomfortable situation. Should this be avoided? Why should misery continue for them? I have no idea what you're talking about here:o
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Ami
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Post by Ami on Jul 11, 2002 8:33:37 GMT -5
I agree! My marriage was painful, my divorce empowering!
When you get to the point that the ONLY reason you are with a partner is a little piece of paper, it's time to move on! Not doing so is self-distruction...
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Post by Horace on Jul 15, 2002 18:00:21 GMT -5
The taoists say - the strength of a nation lies in the integrity of its houses. Did you ever wonder why? Some of my friends are into designing things, like tea-pots, software programs and bicycles - I think after a while they would agree that - if your army had to re-fit the door each time they left to war, or if you had to mop water from the floor each time you took a shower - it would really slow you down. You could imagine that houses could directly cause car accidents, lost financial deals and fallen armies. Divorce is the same as (and often goes with) moving house - I dunno if its a good idea to have another house to move into straight away either! Seems to me there is often just a different set of broken pipes in the new house - and the realtors get all the benefit from the move - so better stick with your fixer upper! %208-%29
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Post by Horace on Jul 15, 2002 18:15:07 GMT -5
Just wanted to see what this would look like... Hmmm, not bad...that should do it. I have to say that - if I have caused any hurt or pain to anyone with my ridiculous rantings about divorce that I am very sorry. I'm barking up a sad tree with fake christmas snow on it and I'd like to invite you all to my house for tea - (you can see I've started to assemble the crockery). It is a great thing that Dickie felt such love in his life, and I think its OK for me to feel sad for him and Leslie. I'd feel the same for anyone else. For now, lets raise a cup, and salute -- that love is dead - long live love!
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LL
Junior Member
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Post by LL on Jul 16, 2002 8:09:25 GMT -5
What do YOU think?
I thought...
Nothing to be sorry for...I just wish you would say what you mean and stop sidestepping it all over the place...a little piece here...another over there. I apologize to no one over what I have written in here...they're my thoughts on the subject based on my experiencePeriod
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Post by WishIknew on Jul 18, 2002 8:16:18 GMT -5
This is fascinating! Coming into a discussion that has been going on since January. . . Like someone mentioned before I didn't even know Richard and Leslie had divorced and my first reaction was to cry. Why? Because I did feel like I knew them. As RB said in Illusions (I think) "If you will practice being fictional for a while, you will understand that fictional characters are sometimes more real than people with bodies and heartbeats." So is it any wonder that we all feel "something" at the dissolution of their message? What is fascinating to me about this discussion is how it reflects each individual's perception of divorce. LL argues for its acceptability and the right to choose divorce freely over the much worse alternative of being trapped in a stifling relationship. Can we guess what his past relationship was like ? Ami agrees and is going through her own divorce, so is surely wrestling with all of these issues. But I have to say I like Horace's comments best. For me the analogies to plumbers and limb removal are accurate. It isn't a matter of listing the pros and cons to getting a divorce. The question is why do two people try to build something together and then fail? I know that someone out there will remind me about all of this being an illusion and needing to learn something from someone, but I struggle constantly with knowing when something is "real" and when it is "a lesson" I chose for myself. Isn't there a reference in one of the books to life being a like a game and we all had to agree to play by the same rules in order to make this game work? Well one of the rules is that we agree to see each other as separate from ourselves in order to interact with and learn from each other. The whole process wouldn't work too well if we knew we were all the same being and we sat around talking to ourselves? I think another "rule" of the game is that we do categorize and assess other people in order to make sense of what they do. Yesterday, after reading an article in our local paper I was discussing with my dad a story about a man who vandalized a coffee shop owned by an Arab and spraypainted graffitti on a university landmark. My initial reaction was horror and sadness to think that this man held such racist views and would commit such hurtful acts. But then, after reading further the article described the mental status of this individual and it became obvious that he was mentally disturbed. Suddenly my opinion changed. Now I thought he wasn't a racist, just a poor soul suffering a nervous breakdown. I also read another horrific story about a little girl in San Diego who was recently abducted while playing outside with a friend. Her body was found Monday. Is there any doubt that the person who did this is mentally disturbed? Is there anyone out there who doesn't have an "opinion" on such an event and the person who did it? Well, I hope I haven't taken this discussion too far afield but I am trying to make a point. We DO HAVE OPINIONS and they are a necessary part of the game. Personally, the most relevant bit of info someone posted was regarding Richard's children. If it is true that he "abandoned" his children or "turned his back" on his family, then it is relevant. It says something about how valid his views are on relationships and life in general. If he goes around carelessly hurting the people in his life (and don't tell me they can't be hurt unless they choose to be- cuz I know that, but it confuses the issue here) then his observations on life and the people he interacts with become suspect. I realize his works are fictional but the messages we glean only have meaning if they are useful to us as we sit here playing this game together. Sorry this was so long. I shouldn't even be in here because I have a statistics project due in an hour and I am soooo behind!
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Post by Horace on Jul 24, 2002 18:39:09 GMT -5
I think liquorice tea can be very soothing, but any old green tea is good for everyday consumption! What about you? Also, I wonder if we can persuade "WishIKnew" to join our board.
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Post by my opinion on Jul 25, 2002 20:22:19 GMT -5
Did you ever taste Red Tea? If so how was it - if not - have your heard of it - it is supposed to have more antioxidents than green.
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Post by Horace on Jul 26, 2002 21:37:39 GMT -5
You bring the red and let's share! How do you like a little smoked-up lox and a toasty bagel and maybe a viennese shortbread thing with cream? That's a tea party. %208-%29
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Post by my opinion on Jul 27, 2002 9:17:26 GMT -5
Nice, you bring the stories
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Post by wishIknew on Aug 2, 2002 15:04:59 GMT -5
Although you weren't very persuasive, you succeeded in persuading me anyway. Does that make me "easy"? Anyway, now that I'm a member, Horace, will you comment on my rambling monologue or shall we just have tea? My favorite is herbal peach tea. It tastes like you're drinking a flower. Mostly though I have to admit my coffee addiction gets in the way of those relaxing tea breaks. I'm almost done with this statistics stuff though and then, hopefully the pace will relax and I'll spend more time in quiet reverie drinking tea.
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Post by snowyh on Aug 2, 2002 20:18:12 GMT -5
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