|
Post by milena on Feb 5, 2002 9:26:00 GMT -5
I have a problem in justifying the theory of choice in the face of disasters or the suffering of children. Surely they did not choose to come into this life to suffer? What lessons could a starving, beaten child have chosen to learn? Seems to me that maybe this theory fits because we have the luxury of choice.
Any ideas?
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 5, 2002 11:57:00 GMT -5
Perhaps the problem is in justifying it. All I can say to this is, well, how do you know? I think it depends on the definition of suffer. Beating and starving are things that I would like to avoid but who knows about others...I certainly dont. It seems very difficult when concepts, theories, etc. are generalized to include every individual case. Myself, I analyze my own situation and choose accordingly and at the same time I allow others to do the same...trusting that they are making the best choices for themselves at any given time...even children. It is also difficult to trust the system and know that a soul is experiencing exactly what it has chosen to experience. Some of the most desperate suffering has lead to some of the most beautiful creations...I'm not saying that we have to suffer to create beauty...only that it can lead to it. If a beaten and starved child needed help, then it will get it...trust. Even a child that is beaten to death or starved to death...if this causes another to do and create incredible circumstances that never allow it to happen again...well was the suffering worth it? I think that the soul who inhabited that particular body would say...yes, it was worth it. Then again I dont know what any other soul would say, so ..... Oh well, lost track of how much I was writing there............rambling LL
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 6, 2002 0:54:39 GMT -5
On the way to the hardware shop yesterday I got my haircut . While I was under the knife, a guy (about 18yrs) with downs syndrome and his mom (or companion) pushed open the door and the guy started having a "Hey, hows it going man?" kind of conversation with the haircutter. A man's haircutters place is testosterone central. On a saturday the place is full of young guys with their cool faces well and truely on! (BTW I am neither young nor cool). At the moment this guy started to talk the place was blessed in light. In this case my friend LL is right. Suffering leads us to the light. On the other hand LL has a real problem with his respect for indiginous people so I wouldnt say the coast is clear man! 8)
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 6, 2002 7:40:59 GMT -5
What are you talking about?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Look, There is a quote function on this board, so why dont you quote where you perceive me to be saying something that is disrespectful toward indiginous people? If the truth/fact is perceived as disrespectful well then...tough. Have you visited any of the little third world nations within US borders? You seem to post something and then contradict it with your next post...its becoming a pattern.
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 6, 2002 13:36:28 GMT -5
"couch potato"
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 6, 2002 15:17:52 GMT -5
Well, like I said if the truth is disrespectful........tough. hmmmm the government gives the indiginous tribes worthless land, then puts government housing on it, then provides the inhabitants with more than enough alcohol and television stations so that maybe, just maybe they'll ignore/forget the past slaughter of most of their race...and now I'm disrespectful for calling some of them couch potatoes which is what they were taught to be. If it were up to our government we would all be drunk and sitting around on our couches watching TV and not thinking for ourselves at all, after a hard days work and a nice chunk of the paycheck, that is. This seems to be a problem in this coutry...Someone brings up an obvious problem that needs to be addressed and all of the sudden..."Oh, its disrespectful towards this one and that one so we better shove it under a rug and forget about it, might offend someone." Hide the truth, hide the truth, hide the truth...Pretty soon there will be no problems that can be addressed because of this. Well, in the end doesn't much matter to me anyway just thought I'd play your little game of politics and respond to your post. You know, spin around in circles for awhile, like politics always does. ;D BTW my coast is quite clear in my eyes...a bit curious about yours though...man!... As usual......just my 2
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 6, 2002 23:47:23 GMT -5
LL - I wasnt proposing to hide the problem in the least. In fact I'm trying to understand the relationship between action and understanding in a way that makes sense in both a spiritual and material way. How does your wide reading deal with these issues? I think that is the point of Milena's initial question too. How can we be choosing all this stuff when a lot of it is ugly? Today (I was actually on the way back from the hardware shop) I was trying to flesh out this idea that you can choose your life. Who is the chooser? The higher or the lower self? If you're seeking problems to learn from them, then why do we whine about things? Equally, if we seek problems, why - when the problems appear as they do so frequently, do we ignore them or shuffle them off as if they only exist in the realm of politics? Milena has this tantalising idea that you can create your own life - free from suffering - by selecting the right illusion...by choosing. There is definitely something in this - its a Bach-ian theme . What are the parameters and opportunities of choice? What is the language of choice? Is it about going to Wendy's or MacNasty's for supper? Or what? For anyone interested in my plumbing experiences - you will be pleased to know that 1. in these modern days of advanced building techniques, a blow torch is rarely necessary for most pipe work. The hardware store were able to lend me a large squeezing tool that connects plastic pipe with little metal rings. 2. the shower stall no longer leaks - so that at least is one less reason for my wet basement 8)
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 7, 2002 8:43:00 GMT -5
The way that I understand this "choosing" is: There is collective choice and there is individual choice. Now, choosing and remembering, as I understand them, are linked. For example: If I choose to understand, lets say chemistry.(most people shy away from the subject) The collective view/choice is that it is difficult and this may or may not influence my individual view/choice. If I allow my self to be influenced by the collective choice(that it is difficult) then so it shall be and I will remember how difficult it is rather than remembering chemistry itself. If, on the other hand, I allow no influence from the collective and continue my individual choice to understand it ie remember it, then I will. All choices and the remeberances attached to them exist at any given moment, all we need do is decide what it is that we wish to experience or create. Sounds easy enough right? Well when one considers all of the influences that exist from the collective...maybe not so easy. Your choice-rememberance must be clear and from the very heart of your being in order to avoid being influenced by the collective. Otherwise it may become distorted and unrecognizable as the original choice. I used chemistry as an example because this is where my initiation with choice-rememberance arose. I took a nice little chemistry course as a required course for something else that I was pursuing at the time. In high school I hated chemistry(the collective at the time fully influenced me)and failed it miserably. When I took it in college though, I took it step by step and after 3 days was fully in love with it, changed my major, and changed the course of my life. I chose to remember chemistry, I did not choose to remember how "difficult" it was. It remains the easiest and most invigorating experience that I've encountered. What I also came to know by this experience is that individual choice-rememberance can influence the collective as well. I was living out my choice to the fullest, absorbing chemistry like a sponge and this was not going un-noticed. Others began to get excited about it as well and began to see that it was not as difficult as they had been led to believe. I tutored many people in chemistry and the class, overall, did very well. Most were excited, not depressed, when a final exam was passed out. It was a very rewarding experience. So, man this was a long one whew! this was my experience with choice and rememberance and it has worked for me so far. LL
|
|
|
Post by Horace on Feb 8, 2002 16:18:45 GMT -5
Sounds like suffering might be relieved or avoided in the choice of reaction we make to it. The cause doesnt go away, just the effect. What's a cause without an effect? An illusion? 8). But what happens when chemistry itself is the illusion? Medicine for example is continuously proved wrong, so illustrating that at least one version of the truth was missing direct cause + effect relation, and casting serious doubt on medicine's complete grasp of the rules of wellness and disease. Can we choose not to believe a physician's prognosis Still no leaks in the shower. Thinking about installing all new plumbing system
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 8, 2002 16:32:24 GMT -5
Chemistry itself is an illusion. I was just using it as an example of a choice that could be made. Ever read: "The Dancing Woo Li masters"? Good read and opens up one's mind a bit.
|
|
|
Post by abc@def.gh on Feb 11, 2002 12:43:52 GMT -5
Hi there, guys. (Long time, LL) Sorry for crashing your on-going chit-chat here. It`s been really interesting following you. (No, I am not being sarcastic ) Any of you remember Donald Shimoda in the store in the small town by the field they flew from in "Illusions?" He grabbed a guitar, sat down and played it like he had been doing nothing but that all his life. When Richard asks how long Donald has been practicing his guitar, hearing how good he is, Donald says: "Just started". He explains to Richard how this is possible: It comes natural. Richard, now in new and dawning understanding of this, draws a parallell to when he first started flying, having a feeling of mastering it even before he had begun practicing it. (Surely, by now you remember the story, but I am going to finish it anyway When Richard tries to play Donalds guitar, to test the "theory", of course it sounds awful. Their conclusion is, (with regards to how flying feels to him), "You never felt that way about guitars, did you?" I believe our choices are pointed out to us. Not all the time, not every day, but sometimes, when it is most important to us to choose the path leading to where we need to go. Like LL`s cross-country trip, for instance. I am sure you have had a hard time, more than once, trying to present to people around you a really good reason for making the trip. You wanna go, and thats all it takes. Something within you probably knows this is what you need to do, so you do it, confident you will experience and learn something important. The right coices are among the alternatives presented to us at every crossroad. Deep inside, we know whether to turn left, right, turn back or keep going straight ahead. We need to listen, though. Bishop
|
|
LL
Junior Member
Posts: 15
|
Post by LL on Feb 11, 2002 13:19:06 GMT -5
Hey Bishop! (guest?) Hope that you are doing well. Well, with some folks the trip has come as a shock and all that they can think to ask is: "you have a good job, a decent apt, your saving lots of money...why are you going to leave that?" And what you wrote is kind of whats happening and it is very difficult to explain "why"...its something deep inside saying:"do this" It is a calm comforting voice? that lays to rest that fearful part of me thats saying:"what are you doing!?" I've taken the advice of this latter voice each and every time that I've considered this trip(many times) and I've continually come to the same place(crossroad). It took me awhile to notice that it was the same intersection! But, I think the important thing is that I finally noticed and I'm choosing a new(alternate) future and am finally trusting that voice. Contrary to the people wondering "why", there are others in my life that didn't even have to ask...they seem to have this knowing look in their eyes and some, an envious(sp?) look. I cant wait to hear the questions from my place of employment ha! that should be interesting. Welcome back Bish ;D ;D
|
|
Rick
New Member
Posts: 1
|
Post by Rick on Feb 11, 2002 23:46:00 GMT -5
I too had a problem with this theory. But it became clear(er) when Nicole, my 17 year old cousin had finished going through hell with stem cell transplants from a cancer she had lived with since 15 years of age. She would write her "rants", an email list made up of people who loved her and wanted to share her feelings and pain as much as we could. Nicloe would share feelings, thoughts, good and bad times as she lived with her suffering. At the end of her treatment, she was given great news that the stem cell transplant had worked. Still weak and not able to do much but communicate on the computer she sent this message out.
"This is What Cancer Gave [or Took] from Me; Fifteen months of my life put on hold A really rad scar that has a really great story Courage i didn't know i had It gave strength and courage to my family THEY didn't know they had It allowed me to speak about what was going on to all of you, what I was thinking and feeling, and that educated you. .and education by example is one of the most important things [in my opinion, at least] Hair. I lost my hair. and my eyebrows, and eyelashes. .and basically any and all hair on my body. And thus I lost my vanity I learned. I learned how to fight tooth and nail for my life. [important] I learned about my body, how to listen to it. [also important] I learned more than I ever wanted to know about diseases. [which i hadn't known before] I learned that there are people out there who care, who give of themselves to help others. [moves me to tears] I learned what an impact one person can have on this world. [amazinglylarge one] I learned not to take things for granted, to appreciate pancakes, to appreciate sunrises, sunsets, to appreciate everything. The texture of my father's new shoes. The look on my little sister's face when I give her something someone gave to me that I thought she would get more use out of than I would. The look on my doctor's faces when my scans started comming back clear. I learne to appreciate everything that anyone ever did for me. I am more forgiving, and I try my hardest to not hold grudges. That was a really hard lesson for me, lol I have a profound respect for those who have fought the same battle and gone before me, and I feel the need to help those that will come after me. There will always be more. Everyone says that I am so strong, and that I'm so courageous. I also have a respect for the fear I hold. Yes, I'm bloody terrified. I cry easily and often. I have about a 65% chance of relapsing. No one ever promised me a rose garden. But I found this quote earlier, and I absolutely adored it - "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear." -Ambrose Redmoon I have a life. Right now, in this moment, this frame of time, I am alive. No matter what happens in the future, the here and now is more important.
I'm crying now
~Nicole"
Not more than a month after writing this, Nicole was taken to the hospital, her cancer had come back with a vengence. This wonderful child, enlightened being and a teacher in her own way, died a few short months later. She taught us all so many things.
Did she learn the things she was sent here to learn? She died with love and knowing she was loved.
Who's choice was this?
|
|
|
Post by milena on Feb 12, 2002 9:51:28 GMT -5
Bishop - Well said. I guess that in trying to put my own ideas across I forget that 9 times out of 10 Richard/Jonathon/Donald/Pie/Leslie put it clearer than I can. As for the theory of choice I believ (in this life time anyway...!) that it relates to everything and not just what to have for dinner although as that other favourite philospher of mine Pooh said...... Piglet: Pooh what do you say when you wake up? Pooh: I wonder what´s for breakfast? What do you say? Piglet: What exciting thing is going to happen today? Pooh: Same thing. Rick- I guess that if it was Nicole´s choice we won´t know in this life time we´ll have to ask her when we see her. But what i will say is that she was a wonderful teacher and maybe as a more advanced soul she used her suffering to teach and so made the choice that way. Then again maybe not. Either way thank you for choosing to share her words.
|
|
|
Post by Bishop on Feb 14, 2002 9:02:53 GMT -5
Yes, thanks Rick, for sharing.. Difficult question, I think Milena is answering pretty well. Of course, in these matters, it is always a complicating factor presenting someones tragic destiny. It is, no doubt, tempting to "blame" or question a philosophy that claims we are somehow all responsible for what is happening to us, when life and the world is treating someone obviously "unfair", or what may look unfair to the bystander. I think, however, if we really want to fully understand, we will sometimes have to "elevate" ourselves in order to gain full perspective. This is especially difficult in matters where someone we care about is hurt, suffering or in any way is experiencing hardship. B.
|
|